Curse

Chthon · Nov 13, 2010, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Discussion in the monk forum of late seems to have largely congealed around a rough consensus that (1) to the extent that monks continue to justify their existence in a post-ER-ele, post-ST-rit world, they do so through their party healing abilities, and (2) the biggest flaw with party healing is the way it gobbles up your entire bar in order to get decent effect.

Into this context drops the new Healing Burst.

Quote:

5e, 3/4cast, 4r
Elite Spell. Target ally is healed for 5...105...130. All party members in earshot gain Health equal to the Divine Favor bonus from this spell. Your Smiting Prayers are disabled for 20 seconds.

This seems, at least at first blush, like it might have the potential to provide decent party healing on a bar that at least resembles a WoH hybrid.

So, what does everyone think?

Does it work? Does it not work? Is the redbarup component OK or too weak compared to WoH to be viable? Is the recharge OK or too long to be responsive in tough situations? Is the party heal big enough given the low recharge, or not really? Does it demand too much of an investment into DF to make it work? Any nice synergies? Anything that shores up the worst weak points?

Luminarus · Nov 13, 2010, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Im assuming your talking pvp because in pve, its still not really worth it. Hybrids are semi pointless and soul reaping just means go to town on the rit skills.

Lets assume 6-8 divine favor, which in a hybrid monk is probably reasonable. Thats 3.2*8 which is 25.6, rounded to 26. Compare this with WoH, which heals for an additional (Give or take) 100 for the same energy with a slightly lower recharge, AND works better on single target damage compared with pressure. So for burst to have the same total red bar effect as woh, it must hit 4 people taking enough damage for it to be worth it.

Now for every 4 bursts you can use 5 wohs, but this isnt directly comparable due to the additional energy cost. But lets assume that because of that 5 people need to be hit for it to equal the heal. (Side note which im not sure about, does the target also get the 'bonus' heal? If so that makes it a little bit easier.) So basically, if versing a pressure team and 1/2 the party is both within range, and taking some decent amount of damage it is probably worth it. However, versus a high single target damage character due to its longer recharge and lesser overall heal it wont keep up.

My personal view is that WoH is still better, and more likely to hold up in the long run versus a more variety of teams. I also expect that the 2 earshot party heals in DF will see some more play now.

Master Fuhon · Nov 13, 2010, 05:11 AM // 05:11

If you heal someone who is under the effects of healing %reduction/increase, the party healing portion is reduced/increased on that character only. Everyone not targetted gets your Divine Favor bonus regardless of whether they are under the effects of healing % reduction/increase. (Tested under Predatory Season, Master of Deep Wound, Life Attunement). If you are under the effects of skills that boost/decrease your own healing (Healer's Covenant/Unyielding Aura), the direct heal portion is affected but not the party heal. Heals party members in earshot of target if you heal something that is considered an ally of your party. Does not double dip on the healed target with Divine Favor healing obviously.

The interesting thing about the skill is that it is not really a Healing Prayers skill anymore, it's almost a Divine Favor skill. So what have I done with it? Right now, this might be the most powerful party heal available to a protection monk after Seed of Life, so I only tested it on a PvE Boon Prot (prot build not requiring an elite, highest DF). It's not insane like "I can flag heroes into hard mode AoE with this" (Ether Renewal is best at doing that), but obviously it cleans up light aoe from pve mobs that don't pressure well in the first place. It would probably be interesting to test in an area with Environmental caused damage.

If you make a build that functions around Word of Healing, I don't believe you can swap this in place of it. Just like, I don't think this takes the place of a pure party healing build either. It tries to do two things at once, and in doing so, it doesn't directly beat a specialized healing build designed for a specialized healing purpose.

Lanier · Nov 13, 2010, 05:14 AM // 05:14

I always run 12 heal/11 prot/12 DF split in my healing-based hybrid builds, so yea, I intend to use Healer's Burst to some extent. Then again, I still probably prefer LoD overall if I wanted to devote my elite to party healing, and WoH is still better at strictly single-target healing. Healer's burst is now kind of the in-between skill for when you want that strong single target healing but you want a certain amount of party heal as well. This, at least, is how I intend to use it.

Necromas · Nov 13, 2010, 05:37 AM // 05:37

I'm thinking two healing burst monks built like WoH hybrids will make a pretty decent backline. Seems like the kind of thing that will be nicer with two monks using it than just one. Would probably be better for heroes than for players since players can run more complicated stuff.

Should probably make one more prot focused and the other with low prot prayers and just aegis/guardian so they can afford to have bigger heals.

I like the idea of putting it on a boon prot; Could a hero manage their energy well enough to boon prot? I haven't really looking into it but I was under the impression you need to use an e-management elite to make heroes good at boon protting.

Essence Snow · Nov 13, 2010, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I always run 12 heal/11 prot/12 DF split in my healing-based hybrid builds, so yea, I intend to use Healer's Burst to some extent. Then again, I still probably prefer LoD overall if I wanted to devote my elite to party healing, and WoH is still better at strictly single-target healing. Healer's burst is now kind of the in-between skill for when you want that strong single target healing but you want a certain amount of party heal as well. This, at least, is how I intend to use it.

Just out of curiosity how are u running 12/11/12?

Necromas · Nov 13, 2010, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Just out of curiosity how are u running 12/11/12?

11/10+2/10+1+1 probably.

Chthon · Nov 13, 2010, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Initial test was highly successful. Did Bogroots HM (today's ZB) with a PUG, with a horrific UA build on the other monk (orison, words of comfort, healing ribbon, healing seed, etc.). I thought for a moment about booting the monk, but then decided it would help the test by eliminating the possibility that the other backliner was secretly pulling some weight for me.) Only PUG members who rose above henchmen level builds were subpar-variant ZV derv and subpar-variant imbagon. So I did have 2x SY! helping out. Only deaths were when half the team decided to run through the growths while half stayed behind (got myself killed trying to heal both groups) and when some moron extended way out of spell range and into a nest of spirit-spam bugs. Otherwise held up beautifully. Even managed when they overaggroed damn near everything in the plant/incubus room right before the bugs.

Current test build is:
Healing 11+1+3/1, DF 11+1, Prot 8+1
Healing Burst
RoF
Seed of Life
Protective Spirit
Aegis
Cure Hex/Dismiss Condition
Air of Superiority
Selfless Spirit

Almost felt like RoF could be ditched for something else, though I might not get that feeling against monsters that do a better job of bypassing SY! than the froggies.

Illavos Lin · Nov 13, 2010, 09:45 AM // 09:45

I have to say I used to play just a random WoH or Healers Boon monk in FA now I just modified my WoH build to use Healing Burst, works well. It also seems to work well in AB since its a good straight heal and your team (if you have a good one) is usually within earshot.

FoxBat · Nov 13, 2010, 02:29 PM // 14:29

You can use this on hybrids but I don't really consider this a "hybrid" skill anymore than UA or Healer's Boon are. Both DF and Healing Prayers need to be high for this skill to have a point. You need at least 10+1 DF so this is not something you can slot on those 8 tactics woh arena guys.

The passive healing @ 13 DF is very close to DH/HD under UA @ 14 DF. You lose the "burst" ability and the uber rez, but you have an extra pip and get a decent direct heal at the same time. I do think there are niches for this build to function well, particularly vs heavy degen/enviornmental condition or playing solo monk with an imba.

Master Fuhon · Nov 13, 2010, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necromas

I like the idea of putting it on a boon prot; Could a hero manage their energy well enough to boon prot? I haven't really looking into it but I was under the impression you need to use an e-management elite to make heroes good at boon protting.

Human monks have Selfless Spirit, which requires no further attribute investment for energy management. I can't even tell you specifically whether heroes even use the skill right, like whether they use it as a single target heal or whether they even know it's good enough to party heal with. I probably won't ever be testing this on a hero before someone else does. I'm not really a monk player anymore, so I won't be testing this with all kinds of builds either.

I tested it at 12+1+3 DF/11+1 Prot/6+1 Heal. My original theory was that there are pretty clear cut times when you want a party heal and clear cut times when you want a strong single target heal (RoF+D.Boon). As far as I was hypothesizing, H.Burst would always underheal an important target if I needed a powerful heal unless I was Arcane Mimicing Unyielding Aura. And I figured that even if I was doing that, I might end up doing something funky by putting the party heal on recharge during times when I didn't even need it. I just use it as a very basic function, almost a pure party heal that I target on the character with the lowest health; I don't use this as a primary single target heal at all until multiple people have lost some health.

Haggis of Doom · Nov 13, 2010, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necromas

11/10+2/10+1+1 probably.

You mean 11+1/10+1/10+1+1

Lanier · Nov 13, 2010, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Just out of curiosity how are u running 12/11/12?

That includes rune bonuses. I run 11+1 DF/10+1+1 Heal/10+1 Prot in my WoH hybrid.

LifeInfusion · Nov 13, 2010, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Initial test was highly successful. Did Bogroots HM (today's ZB) with a PUG, with a horrific UA build on the other monk (orison, words of comfort, healing ribbon, healing seed, etc.). I thought for a moment about booting the monk, but then decided it would help the test by eliminating the possibility that the other backliner was secretly pulling some weight for me.) Only PUG members who rose above henchmen level builds were subpar-variant ZV derv and subpar-variant imbagon. So I did have 2x SY! helping out. Only deaths were when half the team decided to run through the growths while half stayed behind (got myself killed trying to heal both groups) and when some moron extended way out of spell range and into a nest of spirit-spam bugs. Otherwise held up beautifully. Even managed when they overaggroed damn near everything in the plant/incubus room right before the bugs.

Current test build is:
Healing 11+1+3/1, DF 11+1, Prot 8+1
Healing Burst
RoF
Seed of Life
Protective Spirit
Aegis
Cure Hex/Dismiss Condition
Air of Superiority
Selfless Spirit

Almost felt like RoF could be ditched for something else, though I might not get that feeling against monsters that do a better job of bypassing SY! than the froggies.

Does your bar really need 11+1+3 Healing prayers? The heal from Healing burst isn't all that hot. I think I'd rather go 11+1+1 DF, 10+1 prot,10+1 Heal since Healing burst,seed gets its heal from DF and the only heal spells you have are healing burst and cure hex.

At 11 Heal, it heals for 14 Healing prayers' Ethereal Light (97 HP). 5energy, 0.75 cast, 4 recharge.

Bogroot Growths isn't a good benchmark, especially not with 2 SY!s spammers and a UA. You can get by with one monk in Bogroot growths with enough mitigation. Vloxen is probably better as a test.

You can't mimicry HB or UA to boost the party heal.

I'd say UA is better. Why? DH,HD heal for 80ish. This heals for 40ish. For you to heal 40ish damage on the party, it has to be degen or something small enough to not matter unless the damage is recurring (DOT AOEs). DH/HD are the same energy cost.

You need ~2-3 casts to match one heal party under Healer's Boon, 2 casts to match Divine Healing or Heaven's Delight. So the energy efficiency is crap, the heal doesn't deal with spikes from things like Earthquake, Meteor, etc and it doesn't heal for enough to matter (120ish at 14healing prayers). The only thing it can deal with is degen pressure since it can be used much more often than heal party (energy prohibitive) and Divine healing+Heaven's Delight (recharge prohibitive) since there's no real hex removal that can deal with hex stacks. Conditions you can RC/draw conditions/foul feast, for hexes you have Peace and Harmony, 15 energy convert hexes with massive cooldown, Divert Hexes, 15 energy Withdraw Hexes with massive terrible cooldown.

EDIT: If you're going to pump Healing Prayers, might as well just use Light of Deliverance for a better party heal. At least if you mimicry UA then the party heal is boosted.

Necromas · Nov 13, 2010, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

You mean 11+1/10+1/10+1+1

Doh, was thinking of a build with 11 inspiration magic.

Also, I'd favor high DF over high HP, sure you single target heal a little less but you AoE heal more and your prots heal more.

Another thing people aren't talking about much is bar compression, the UA/HBoon builds that can party heal well usually devote at least 5 skills just to healing (elite, heal, heal, and the two DF heals or heal party and GoLE).

Chthon · Nov 13, 2010, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Does your bar really need 11+1+3 Healing prayers? The heal from Healing burst isn't all that hot. I think I'd rather go 11+1+1 DF, 10+1 prot,10+1 Heal since Healing burst,seed gets its heal from DF and the only heal spells you have are healing burst and cure hex.

My suspicion is that dropping healing that far would really hurt your ability to spot heal decently.

Quote:

Bogroot Growths isn't a good benchmark, especially not with 2 SY!s spammers and a UA. You can get by with one monk in Bogroot growths with enough mitigation. Vloxen is probably better as a test.

ZB is where the PUGs can be found to test with. Bogroots was the ZB of the day.

SY! is not an unreasonable testing condition. Most decent teams have SY! somewhere.

In case you weren't paying attention, the UA was awful, and I deliberately left them in the team because they were awful. It was essentially a 1-monk backline.

Quote:

You can't mimicry HB or UA to boost the party heal.

If you're running 2 party-healing monks for a backline, your team already sucks...

Quote:

I'd say UA is better. Why? DH,HD heal for 80ish. This heals for 40ish. For you to heal 40ish damage on the party, it has to be degen or something small enough to not matter unless the damage is recurring (DOT AOEs). DH/HD are the same energy cost.

You need ~2-3 casts to match one heal party under Healer's Boon, 2 casts to match Divine Healing or Heaven's Delight. So the energy efficiency is crap, the heal doesn't deal with spikes from things like Earthquake, Meteor, etc and it doesn't heal for enough to matter (120ish at 14healing prayers). The only thing it can deal with is degen pressure since it can be used much more often than heal party (energy prohibitive) and Divine healing+Heaven's Delight (recharge prohibitive)

1. Taking your numbers, it has a very similar party HPS as DH/HD (40heal/4.75cycle vs 160heal/16cycle). It cannot be that one is great for party healing but the other can only handle light pressure.

2. Spikes imply a mitigation failure, which in turn means we're already moving outside of presumptions where a monk belongs in the party at all. Remember, the new monk paradigm is playing second fiddle to ER ele/ST rit/lots of midline mitigation and providing mostly party heals, with some spot heals for the mitigation oops moments, some more mitigation, and some removal.

3. Energy efficiency is fine (even superior) compared to DH/HD when you consider that (a) all energy costs on a UA bar should be multiplied by 4/3 to account for the missing pip of regen, and (b) the 5e spent on HBurst is a party heal plus a spot heal that the UA bar needs to spend 10e (actually 13.33...e) over 2 casts to match. HBurst only has awful energy efficient if no one has low enough hp to benefit from the spot heal and you're dumb enough to spam it anyway.

Lanier · Nov 13, 2010, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Current test build is:
Healing 11+1+3/1, DF 11+1, Prot 8+1
Healing Burst
RoF
Seed of Life
Protective Spirit
Aegis
Cure Hex/Dismiss Condition
Air of Superiority
Selfless Spirit

Almost felt like RoF could be ditched for something else, though I might not get that feeling against monsters that do a better job of bypassing SY! than the froggies.

Energy management seems kind of excessive. I would replace Air of Superiority with SoA (which helps immensely with passive e-management if that is what you are concerned about).

Wenspire · Nov 13, 2010, 10:27 PM // 22:27

My only gripe with Burst is the 4 second recharge vs. 3 seconds on a skill like WoH. Other than that area, it seems to be a pretty viable elite to use.

Regarding it not being able to heal a single target for enough, that really should not be an issue if the protect monk is doing his job.

IMO, to really test Burst, one would need to monk for a party that isn't utilizing an MM. The damage mitigation from minions doens't really test a monks build/skill at all.

Just my $0.02...

ZephyLynx · Nov 13, 2010, 11:47 PM // 23:47

I did a full hm FoW run using:

Vig. Spirit
Patient Spirit
D. Kiss
Healing Burst [E]
Remove Hex
Aegis
Prot. Spirit
Restore Life

with a balanced group. No SY, no minions (ofc), no ST rit (did have a SoS rit, though). The other monk was running a WoH hybrid. I found using HBurst to be very useful. Since we had only one front liner, most of the party was backline/midline. I used HBurst as a spot heal and a small party heal. Vig. Spirit mitigated damage from SS, and kept small but constant heals. Using HBust on recharge gave a very good boost of health for a small amount of energy. The WoH hybrid monk caught spikes, and I provided constant party healing. What I like about this skill over GoLE+HP+HB and UA+HD+DH is that fact that it is only one skill.

I did do Bogroots with a friend, me as basically the same build as above, and my friend as Aura of Faith prot. We did pretty well, no SY, but we did have mm.

I'm gonna try 2 monk hybrid backline with a friend, both of us running HBurst, one with more heal, and one with more prot.

Xenomortis · Nov 14, 2010, 12:52 AM // 00:52

I am not convinced Healing Burst has the power behind it to replace Word of Healing on your typical hybrid bar. Especially since the target doesn't benefit from the AoE heal (only the regular DF bonus, all though they're indistinguishable - either way, the target only receives one bonus heal). Certainly tests you can run with it may yield favourable results, but I can't see the outcome being any different with Word of Healing.
This problem is exasperated by the fact that the only comparable, non-elite, heal to WoH is Gift of Health, which would screw up Healing Burst.

The AoE heal itself is really small and has little immediate effect. Over time with repeated use of the skill, it'll stack up, but the idea of AoE heals is to reverse or stabilise a situation that's gone wrong - all this skill is good for is dealing with light pressure and I don't need to dedicate my elite for that..

That being said, I think this skill might work well alongside a WoH monk.
I also think this skill might work well with heroes. Heroes tend to be very bad at using heals and use them far too often on targets that don't need it. The constant AoE bonus might make a difference since it's rare a hero will land WoH when the bonus will trigger.

I haven't done any testing myself; this is just speculation on my part.